Six Skills Data Professionals Need To Succeed with Abhijit Bhaduri, Brand Evangelist & Former General Manager of Global L&D at Microsoft

Richie Cotton

Hi Abhijit. Welcome to the show.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Thank you so much for having me here, Richie.

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Richie Cotton

So, just to get started, I'm curious, do you think that having a career is getting easier or harder?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, I think it's a little bit like, you know, when you have two flavors of ice cream to choose from, chocolate or vanilla, it becomes easy. But if you go to a shop which has, we've got 70 versions of ice cream and 20 toppings that you can add and subtract. It becomes infinitely harder to choose.

00:00:30:12 - 00:00:55:08

Abhijit Bhaduri

And that's what's happening. You know, you think about data professionals, you can either choose to do, you know, specialization in different aspects of data, you know, or you can choose to kind of fields that you can work in, whether it's health care or analytics or, you know, or retail. Or you can then choose whether you want to work solo and become a contractor, or do you want to get employed?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Do you want to do part time? Do you want to go into an office? Do you like to work remote? Each option that you create, you know, creates a set of possibilities and takes away a set of possibilities. You always are wondering, is I getting more? Did I lose more? And so that's why navigating your career becomes that much harder.

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Richie Cotton

That's interesting. So on the one hand, there are many different possible ways to do a career now. Like you can probably find something that fits you, but the hard part is working out what's going to fit you and, choosing the right thing. Okay. So I guess, do you have any advice then, for getting over this paralysis for not knowing what to do with your career?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

No, it doesn't matter. Whatever you do today is probably going to need to be reinvented so it doesn't matter. Experiment and try it out. That's my view. I always keep experimenting with stuff that I like to do. So, you know, that's what I would tell anyone.

00:01:47:27 - 00:02:05:28

Richie Cotton

I like the idea of experimenting and just keep trying stuff. I think that's, very relevant that people in the data world, you know, you do data experiments. So, you can also experiment with your own career. And I do like the idea that, we've both had a few years of, career experience, but you're still trying to figure out what you want to be when you grow up and, try new things.

00:02:06:00 - 00:02:17:14

Abhijit Bhaduri

And that's that's true for everybody. Actually, I think this is a question. What do I want to be when I grow up? It's probably even more relevant today because we are living longer, so you have enough time to grow up.

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Richie Cotton

Okay. So that's actually kind of fascinating. So, people are living longer. Does that change your career strategy?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Oh, yes. Of course, because, you know, you need to think about, you know, if you have a 60 year lifespan versus 80, your lifespan versus a 100 year lifespan, you know, the amount of money you need to, live, is different. And because cost of living goes up, inflation, etc., all of that. But most of that, you know, the way that you stay relevant also keeps changing.

00:02:47:28 - 00:03:03:16

Abhijit Bhaduri

And in today's world, you know that change is even more rapidly than it used to before. So you have to keep reinventing yourself, try out different things, work in different kinds of settings. So it's sort of in some stage becomes very exciting. So I think it's a good time to be alive.

00:03:03:18 - 00:03:20:09

Richie Cotton

Okay. That's for sure. I, I, I totally agree with you. It is a good time to be alive. There's lots of cool stuff going on. But, yeah. Interesting that the fact that you're living longer means that you are going to have to reinvent yourself at some point. Now, I'd like to talk a bit about your latest book, so career 3.0.

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Richie Cotton

And in this, you've got, three different categorizations for types of career. So can you talk me through what they're 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 careers are.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So one point of career is typically the traditional one which people used to have. So let's say somebody joined, the same company, they joined in and retired from that. And you joined the mining company. You joined and retired from that. Career 2.0 is really when people, create a side gig, which is very different from the main career that they have, you know, so you might be a data scientist, but, you actually have a side gig, maybe, a cookery show.

00:03:57:25 - 00:04:20:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, it's a completely different thing that you monetize, and career sphere or to think about it like a pizza, you know, where you have different skills are the slices of pizza, and you can combine different, aspects and, you know, and then start to create cutting out opportunities through different combinations. That's the career three point model, which I talk about in this book.

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Richie Cotton

Okay. So rather than just having a single career, you've got lots of kind of, I guess fragments of career that somehow sort of blend together into one whole thing. Is that about right?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

You're combining different skills. So for example, I'm in talent management, which is the core skill that I studied. And then, you know, I had a degree in, but I also sort of like to draw, which is what I do independently as well. I do, illustrate articles and, you know, different kinds of poems and books, which I do professionally, but I also use them in my own work.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So when I do my talk. So when I do my keynotes, I use my cartoons and drawings in my slides. So I combine the two of them in a completely different space, which is keynotes. But I'm bringing two different skills a talent management and the drawing. So that's the way to think about career strategies for career three daughter.

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Richie Cotton

Okay, that's pretty cool. I guess in my own case, it's like I can do data science but also have conversations somehow that to can doing and doing a data point customer. Wonderful. All right. Excellent. So well, what career? 3.0 in a moment. But maybe we'll start with like the, the 1.0 careers. And I think that's what most people are familiar with.

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Richie Cotton

So this is the idea that you've got a single area of expertise that you're holding throughout your career lifetime. Is this still a viable option?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Oh, yes. Absolutely. For practically every profession, there is a segment which is, really a one point tool option. So for example, if you are a plumber, you can be a plumber and continue doing that for the rest of your life. You've been a data scientist. You could continue doing most of it for the rest of your life, but your technology keeps changing.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So that's one variable that you are adding to the mix. And then, of course, you know the place where you decide to use the expertise that keeps changing so you can use it in healthcare, you can use it in retail, you can use it in sports. So different kinds of options keep emerging. And then you decide that you want to do it as an employee or as a freelancer or a part time consultant.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Do you want to work globally? Do you want to do some part of it globally and some part of it locally? Do you like commuting? Do you like traveling? So all those variables, which are personal variables, all of them come together. But if you want to keep it simple, yes, it's possible to start working in a company which is, you know, a large company, which manufacturers or which works with data analytics.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

People and build your career around that, you know, so it could be just one of the ways in which you can manage your career. So absolutely a viable thing.

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Richie Cotton

Okay. That's good to know. This is still all possible. Do you have any tips on like how you might succeed in a 1.0 type career? Like how do you do these things better?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So I think being able to succeed in any one of these skills, any one of these areas, requires a certain set of skills. For example, you can be a data scientist and you can teach people in your organization how to, you know, use data better or, potentially those are some of the ways in which you can, you know, help your business, development team, to sell the idea of what you do, and, you know, become a storyteller.

00:07:34:29 - 00:07:54:25

Abhijit Bhaduri

And that becomes another way in which you can continue to work at the same company, but you kind of use find different ways of other people benefiting from the skill that you have. So that's the easiest way to stay relevant as well as stay in the same career. So career 1.2 is very much a viable visible option.

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Richie Cotton

Okay. And it sounds like in this case, like one of the benefits of this 1.0 career is that you've got this sort of stability, like there's a certain amount of consistency, around the job. So is that the sort of reason you'd go into, a 1.0 type career or other? The reasons you might want to pick that type?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

I think, you know, you have to think about the work that you do in two kinds of ways. One is, do you like to dig deep and really discover, you know, the depths of the field? That's one kind of a style that you really dig deep and say, I'm going to dig deep and be a data specialist, and you kind of really stay true to that.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So you know more about, your field than anybody else. So you understand whether, let's say you use it for you are a TensorFlow specialist, okay. So that you kind of look at that, but you also begin to understand that this technology keeps changing. So the necessary part of technology is it's going to evolve. So like Julia is now coming up as another, new way of you know, shaping the way data gets looked at.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So then that's another way that you can do that. You can specialist, but keep changing the technology. So that's still the same way of doing that. So your business model can keep evolving. But the skill that you bring to the table is really staying the same. So yes very doable okay.

00:09:18:06 - 00:09:35:12

Richie Cotton

So you've got this sort of consistency in terms like the type of work you're doing. But probably the underlying technology is going to change. So let's talk a bit about the 2.0 careers. This is the idea of having, a side hustle. Do you want to talk me through? Like, why do you need to bother with this second job?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Well, I think one of the ways to think about it is, a side hustle can be a very powerful way for you to, start learning something new. So that's the first big thing 34% of Americans actually have a side hustle, you know, different kinds. And when I see a side hustle, what I really mean is it could be a side hustle in a related area.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So for example, you could be a specialist in Python, but you are beginning to teach another kind of language. You know, you're beyond sort of doing that or you are creating videos on a very different kind of a field. It could be sports, it could be how to use, data science or sports and become a better player.

00:10:16:03 - 00:10:39:05

Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, that could be your second side that's related, but in a different ecosystem. The other piece could be that you have a sort of a almost polar opposite skill. So you are a data scientist, but you are a great storyteller. So you can combine the two of them. I mean, you're a good example of that. You are a data scientist, but you are also using that to build awareness about data science.

00:10:39:05 - 00:10:56:29

Abhijit Bhaduri

And, you know, you are an evangelist for the organization and all of that. You know, you are doing something creative in this new field called media and you are creating a podcast. So all of these are different ways in which your career to role model can work out. Even though you are employed in the same place, you can still have a career 2.1 model.

00:10:56:29 - 00:11:09:05

Abhijit Bhaduri

You don't have to be, employed in one place and do something that's an option. But you could still be employed on the same company and do two things for the company. Employers, by and large, love it.

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Richie Cotton

Okay. Yeah, I can certainly see how the difference where it's like, okay, I'm poor, I need a second job driving Uber just to sort of pay the rent. And I'm doing two different things within my company, and it just gives me a bit of flexibility and more excitement in, in the day job, I suppose. So it seems like quite a few of the sort of secondary jobs they are sort of, related to media ideas or creating content in some sort of way, is that you should start looking if you want to have a 2.0 career, or are there other areas you recommend?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

A career is basically built on one single premise, which is whatever you are doing is of value to somebody else, so you're creating value for somebody else, whether it's a career 1.org model or career two dot model or career three Dotto model, that remains constant. So, you know, a scientist creates value for the organization or the field of research, whichever way you think about it.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So that's a given in career 2.0 a model. What you are really doing is you could be creating value for two different kinds of audience groups. You know, one could be the customer, which you are doing later with your employment. And two can be, the value that you create for your colleagues inside the organization. That's another way of doing it.

00:12:22:15 - 00:12:33:27

Abhijit Bhaduri

Or you could be creating value for, let's hear an audience outside the organization. That's another way of looking at, the, careers. So these are all different ways in which you can work.

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Richie Cotton

That's brilliant. I like that there is that sort of flexibility of different ways of doing these things. So just one more on the the 2.0 style careers. You give them some examples of good sort of secondary areas for, people or data professions. You mentioned the idea of data storytelling, the communication side. You mentioned the idea of podcasting, things that are there any other sort of secondary areas you think go alongside data careers?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Yes. So, you know, maybe in one part of your work could be about cleaning up data, which you obviously, you know, because that's one of the biggest problems that the data scientists talk about all the time, that when they are trying to sort of, you know, bring in data into a new language or a different model, then the biggest problem is how do you make one piece of data, talk to the, you know, that particular, framework?

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Abhijit Bhaduri

Because the data has been built in different formats, different conventions. People are never consistent. So a very large part of it goes in creating that. So that could be one part of what you do. The other could be teaching somebody and that teaching can be in your field. It can be teaching a very different field. It can be inside the organization, it can be outside the organization.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So there are multiple ways in which you can start creating this option. What are you talks about when people are driving an Uber, car outside of the workforce? That's another example of career 2.0, but it's where the work that you are doing is outside of, your main employment. But it doesn't have to be. It can be within the same company as well.

00:14:02:24 - 00:14:19:16

Richie Cotton

Okay. Yeah. So that's interesting. Like the, the data cleaning example you gave, I suppose, in a way that's, a sort of combination of being a data analyst and, a data engineer. And those two things combined, they form the sort of new careers like analytics engineer. And then I suppose you can go in the other direction.

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Richie Cotton

You can have data analyst plus some marketing person become a marketing analyst or maybe, some other area of, like the commercial side of the business. You have data and analytics plus sales. You become a sales analyst. And there are these sort of hybrid, roles there where you do.

00:14:36:17 - 00:15:00:16

Abhijit Bhaduri

You could also start teaching yourself about the ethics of data, you know, so and you could become a specialist in that, that you can teach us all different things about different kinds of legislation to get, you know, the kind of challenges that people are experiencing and create value for those solving those kind of problems. Each time you solve a problem, you're creating an opportunity for yourself.

00:15:00:18 - 00:15:19:03

Richie Cotton

I like that idea. Solve problems and create opportunities. Does that seems like good, career advice? Okay, so, let's move on from, 2.0 careers to 3.0 careers. So you mentioned this is about combining different skills together. So why might you want or need such a sort of fluid career style.

00:15:19:06 - 00:15:36:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

So, you know, careers are also determined not just by the opportunities outside, you know, which as we said, it could be the kind of skills that you have and the kind of places where you can solve those problems. So it could be, the domain could be oil and gas, it could be energy sector, it could be health.

00:15:36:20 - 00:16:04:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

It could be marketing. So that's one way of looking at it. The other is, you know, whether you are doing, let's say, machine learning or whether you are specializing in Python or TensorFlow or, you know, Julia or any of these. But the other way to think about it is your own personal style, your ability to take risks, your ability to live with ambiguity, your ability to, see patterns in fields outside of your own specialization.

00:16:04:20 - 00:16:26:12

Abhijit Bhaduri

So the kind of person that you are opens up this third set of possibilities. And the more curious you are, the more comfort you have with a bigger city, the more ability you have to create opportunities in different fields and find applications of your skills for solving different kinds of problems, that actually create a multiple set of opportunities.

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Abhijit Bhaduri

So career 3.0 is really built around a portfolio of skills, a portfolio of domains and sectors where you can solve problems. And it's of course, driven by the kind of person you are. So combine these three. You're opening up a very different set of opportunities.

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Richie Cotton

Yeah, that's very cool idea that you just keep learning new skills and somehow they, form together to have like, this is who you are and what you can do, and then your career sort of gets matched up to that. So, I want to get into this idea of a portfolio of skills sort of later on.

00:16:59:15 - 00:17:15:27

Richie Cotton

But before we get to that, at the start, we talked about how people have got longer lifespans. They can have a longer career now, like it can easily be well over 40 years, maybe 50 years. In some cases. This means you need to reinvent yourself several times. Do you have any advice on how you can go about reinventing yourself.

00:17:15:29 - 00:17:41:19

Abhijit Bhaduri

Just in terms of the context? What happens is, you know, when when the life spans were much shorter and the industries also survived long, you know, so, you could join a company and sort of really expect to retire from that. There was this whole concept of retirement, I think progressively when you start thinking about, lifespan increasing because of better medication, people are more aware of exercise, the kind of food that they have.

00:17:41:21 - 00:18:08:04

Abhijit Bhaduri

The wedding, all these variables were just telling them how many steps you've taken and all of these things combined together. People are actually living much longer because of a combination of these factors. The second thing that's happening, which is when you look at, you know, the lifespan of organizations that has dropped dramatically from, you know, in the 30s, in 1930, the lifespan of an organization was well upward of 70 years.

00:18:08:12 - 00:18:33:17

Abhijit Bhaduri

The average Standard Poor's 500 company lived for that long. Today, if you look at the standard and poor index and longevity of companies, it's barely in the, late teens. So when you think about that, let's say you would start working theoretically at 25 and you could work till, let's say 70. Let's just take a very definitive example of that.

00:18:33:19 - 00:18:51:16

Abhijit Bhaduri

And if you lived to be 100, you probably have to work longer than that. But your employers are going to rapidly go out of business because so many organizations have. And we keep seeing this, that, you know, this company declared bankruptcy, this one, this got bought up and this one is merged and now is a different entity.

00:18:51:21 - 00:19:20:16

Abhijit Bhaduri

And so, you know, that fluidity gets introduced by your employer. The third element that introduces fluidity is the half life of a skill that used to be much longer. Today it is down to about two and a half, three years in technology. Some of the technology fields are emerging, even, you know, faster. So if you look at the kind of, you know, the models that AI is creating today, you know, those models have been changing really rapidly from the time that we first heard about ChatGPT to today.

00:19:20:19 - 00:19:38:17

Abhijit Bhaduri

Think of the number of iterations, the number of models that have come up, the number of applications, everything. The possibilities have gone up dramatically. So all these things together mean the number of skills that you need to build the things that you need to train yourself. And even as you are doing your day job, that has gone up.

00:19:38:17 - 00:19:59:03

Abhijit Bhaduri

So the way of navigating your career has gone up in a completely, completely different direction. So you no longer can say learn under taught, you know? So whatever you learn, you know, once you get a job, that's it. Now you're set for life. You can retire. So a second job or a second gig, you know, career 2 or 2 is a good bridge.

00:19:59:03 - 00:20:20:08

Abhijit Bhaduri

You try learning something new as you build your expertise. Almost. You know, I'm in a stealth mode, and that becomes the way that you can now, once you, have a certain degree of expertise and you can solve some of these problems with that, you are ready to bring it into your portfolio and start using that to create opportunities for yourself.

00:20:20:11 - 00:20:24:11

Abhijit Bhaduri

So the way to manage your career is completely different.

00:20:24:13 - 00:20:45:03

Richie Cotton

Okay. This is really interesting that your skills are going up to date your employers might might go under or change their strategy, actually, I mean, yeah, talking about like 45 year career, it's really rare for people to stay at an organization for ten years. Left alone, 40. So yeah, I can certainly see how you can have to change your employer several times during your career.

00:20:45:06 - 00:21:01:21

Richie Cotton

And so you probably have to change your skills as well. And you do need to reinvent yourself on that. I'm curious as to whether when you reinventing yourself, this needs to be done mindfully, like you need to have a plan for how it's going to happen, or whether you just wait and say, okay, well, my job is changing.

00:21:01:24 - 00:21:05:23

Richie Cotton

I'll just go with the flow. So, yeah, what's your strategy here?

00:21:05:25 - 00:21:25:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

Well, you know, the first thing I would say is, you know, there's a saying if you, don't know where you're going, you can never get lost. So think of that as the the bright side of, just going along. So there are people who are comfortable with a lot of ambiguity. So in which case, you know, they'll take life as it comes.

00:21:25:21 - 00:21:46:27

Abhijit Bhaduri

There are portions when new opportunities come up and they're fine with that. And then that is a flood versus famine kind of a situation. So drivers have lots of opportunities sometimes fewer. But if you are a little more mindful, if you look at the corner and sort of see what's happening in the industry, you are aware of what's happening to your field.

00:21:46:29 - 00:22:06:04

Abhijit Bhaduri

You're sort of also in tune with the kind of things that people are looking for, the kind of problems, the moment you think you see a problem, that's a career opportunity, you know? So if you think the skill that you have can solve that problem, that is a career opportunity. So the way to think about that would be all right.

00:22:06:04 - 00:22:28:06

Abhijit Bhaduri

So you can sort of go with the flow. But if you are aware of the kind of problems that people are facing, those that are potentially areas where you can, you know, find options, whether it's in the same field of data science, that's one model, or you, can solve a problem in a slightly related field. As we said, data science plus storytelling.

00:22:28:06 - 00:22:53:24

Abhijit Bhaduri

You're a great person. With storytelling. You can do that as a second option, or you can do a portfolio of many different things, you know, so you can be a data scientist working on a particular problem and let's say in the healthcare sector or in a marketing company or and you can be, you know, doing the data cleanup for one of the clients has a special project that you are helping somebody out with.

00:22:53:26 - 00:23:18:02

Abhijit Bhaduri

Or you could have a third element, which could be podcasting and teaching people about data science. That could be a third party. You could be a writer for a magazine, you know, which is, and read by data science professionals. You could write in a general purpose magazine, which is a place where you can demystify what data science, is all about and invite more and more students to that field.

00:23:18:04 - 00:23:40:17

Abhijit Bhaduri

So, I mean, I can just go on and on. And so there are multiple ways in which you can, manage your career. Some like to just be steward about the options. Some don't like so many options because reality is that the more options you have, the harder it is to choose, the fewer options you have. It's constraining, but it's easier to choose.

00:23:40:19 - 00:23:55:09

Richie Cotton

Okay, so a lot of this sounds like, how you approach is, is really going to be based on your personality then. So if you're a planner you like control, you probably, do that in you created no matter what anyone tells you, if you're a bit more, go with the flow then, that's also a viable option.

00:23:55:11 - 00:24:06:00

Richie Cotton

So one of the big themes in your book is that there are six really important skills for anyone to help advance their career. So can you talk me through one of these six essential skills?

00:24:06:02 - 00:24:30:13

Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, these, skills are the ones which are, useful for people no matter where they are. So one skill is, how do you learn something? Which is, something you've not been formally taught before. That's your first skill. The second skill is, once you know it, are you able to teach somebody else? You know, whatever you've learned, the third skill is, you know, how do you become a great storyteller?

00:24:30:13 - 00:24:57:00

Abhijit Bhaduri

Because that's one of the best ways to, teach people is to tell it through a story. Simplify it. The fourth, skill is, how do you build a strong personal brand so that people look up to you for your expertise? So to me, that's the foundation of a strong personal brand. The fifth is how do you navigate multiple ecosystems, you know, so, different kinds of places which are completely, which don't have anything in common.

00:24:57:00 - 00:25:14:23

Abhijit Bhaduri

How well do you navigate those? And the sixth is how do you take your skills and your, ideas and everything and manage a portfolio of skills and opportunities as a long term strategy. So these are the six skills you need.

00:25:14:25 - 00:25:22:23

Richie Cotton

So, your first one was about quickly building expertise in a given area. So how do you go about doing this. What tips do you have?

00:25:22:25 - 00:25:43:04

Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, think of different ways in which you can learn. I mean, some people learn in a very structured way. That's not what I'm referring to. You create your own structure. So you learn from, the online conversations. What are people talking about, the kind of problems that they're trying to solve for, who are the experts? Can you name the top three experts of the field?

00:25:43:06 - 00:26:04:09

Abhijit Bhaduri

And today, you know, the good thing that has happened is knowledge and learning have become so democratized that, no matter which field you're talking about, you have the best of people actually available online through videos. They're talking about their work, they're talking about their books, they're talking about their podcasts. And all of that, creates opportunities for you to learn.

00:26:04:12 - 00:26:23:01

Abhijit Bhaduri

And there are communities where people are teaching each other different things that they're working on. There are people who are giving you projects that you can actually use to learn and solve their problems. So all kinds of options exist. Choose the one which works best for you. As you discover your own style of learning, you begin to become really good at it.

00:26:23:03 - 00:26:50:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

But I think one of the smartest ways to think about it is as you're learning something figured out, how would I simplify this and teach somebody exactly what I learned today? In the last half an hour, I've learned something. How do I teach somebody using a completely different set of examples? Other than what I was told? So that is a great way in which you can continuously learn new things because your mind is a lot more alert when you know, you've got to teach somebody else about that.

00:26:50:21 - 00:27:14:24

Richie Cotton

Absolutely. Yeah. I definitely agree that having to teach someone, someone else, you really do need to know you, know your stuff. Intimately. Okay. So before you were talking about how the half life of skills is decreasing, like, many skills just go out a lot faster. How do you deal with this? Like what? How do you keep up with the sort of ever shortening, half lives?

00:27:14:27 - 00:27:36:03

Abhijit Bhaduri

I think one of the ways to think about it is start by looking at, the career options, that you are interested. For example, if there is a certain sector that you try to learn about every time you think about your skill, a skill and isolation has no value. But if you can solve a problem for somebody you know, then it has a value.

00:27:36:03 - 00:28:00:07

Abhijit Bhaduri

So for example, I could say I love listening to music of a certain kind, but it has no value. Because it's just me. I'm listening to music for my pleasure. That's great. But to create value for someone means I need to solve a problem. And which could be? I can write about music. You know, I could teach music to somebody, or I could sort of, you know, create my own album and sell it.

00:28:00:07 - 00:28:15:09

Abhijit Bhaduri

So there are different ways in which you can create value for people. The same goes for any skill, you know, as you are trying to solve a problem for somebody else, you are trying to, you know, that's a great way in which you can create value for somebody and learn it well yourself.

00:28:15:11 - 00:28:33:21

Richie Cotton

Yeah, I did just think about what problems do other people have. And, if you can solve those, you're creating some value. Now in your book, use the phrase perpetual beta saying like, basically any career is in the state where it's not quite done at any point. So how do you deal with that?

00:28:33:24 - 00:28:57:15

Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, look at it like this, that any field that you take today, you know, it's, changing because of legislation is changing because of, economic realities. You know, it's changing because of government policies, is changing because of skill shortages. It gets changed dramatically based on natural disasters. So there are a million different factors that could be worse.

00:28:57:15 - 00:29:24:09

Abhijit Bhaduri

There could be, you know, regulations. They could be new legislation. All of these creates opportunities, takes away opportunities. So opportunities are not static. You know, if you think about, the kind of degrees that some of the colleges offer today, many of these did not exist in the last three, 4 or 5 years. So the progressive organizations are always offering new kinds of degrees, new kinds of workshops, new kinds of skills to build.

00:29:24:11 - 00:29:55:15

Abhijit Bhaduri

And they are doing it because there are opportunities where you can apply these skills and solve problems. So there are different, capabilities that people need. For example, if you think about data, the ethics of data is a field that is emerging because of all these things that I talked about. You know, the European Union has regulations, so that creates its own set of things about what you can, do, what you can store, how long you can store it, what format you can store it, what you delete, what you give back, etc. all of that.

00:29:55:17 - 00:30:12:19

Abhijit Bhaduri

But if you think about it in another way, you can use the same thing, not just from a data point of view, but you can use it for, let's say, solving employee data, you know? So what kind of data are employers allowed to, keep? What kind of data can they not ask for? What kind of data can they ask for?

00:30:12:19 - 00:30:37:16

Abhijit Bhaduri

But not for, you know, each of these creates possibilities that you can, you know, develop really nuanced versions. You could write an algorithm to, you know, solve that problem. You could sort of create a little piece of software that solves the problem. All these are different ways in which you can deal with it. So, we are living in a world where your opportunities are really, really, really endless.

00:30:37:18 - 00:30:43:06

Abhijit Bhaduri

So it's constantly evolving. So it's therefore I started by saying it's a very exciting time to be alive.

00:30:43:08 - 00:31:01:03

Richie Cotton

I love it, I love the stuff you talk about that you mentioned things like national disasters, new regulations coming. Most people would see these as problems. But the way you described it, it was actually oh, these are possibilities. These are opportunities. And so you've kind of taken this negative idea and turned it into a positive. And I see so this reminds me.

00:31:01:03 - 00:31:17:23

Richie Cotton

So we had Guy Kawasaki on the show last year. He was espousing Carol Dweck, idea of the growth mindset and what you talk about sounds very similar. So, do you want to talk about how the growth mindset is related to the ideas you're talking about? Building expertise.

00:31:17:25 - 00:31:41:22

Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, the central idea of Carol Dweck, work on growth mindset actually talks about, you know, no matter what you can do, there are other things you can learn and that to yourself. So if you say, you know, look at my knowledge of data science is a great no, it isn't yet. So the moment I add the word yet, it creates a possibility.

00:31:41:22 - 00:32:03:01

Abhijit Bhaduri

It's not a closed door. So think about it like that. If I say that. Oh, I'm not a person who can learn about data science, so it's a closed door. But if you say I haven't tried learning about data science yet, I'm actually opening the possibility and telling myself I don't know it right now, but I could if I, you know, put my effort to it.

00:32:03:03 - 00:32:27:27

Abhijit Bhaduri

So and there are many simple applications for cat and waxworks. For example, when you see somebody trying to learn something, very often we look at the results and tell people that, okay, so you got a, a plus in your toilet paper. That's fantastic. Except for the fact that when you raise the results, it builds anxiety, because now I worry about maybe this particular quiz was simple.

00:32:27:27 - 00:32:49:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

I got an A-plus. What if the next quiz is not as simple and I don't get an A-plus? What happens? My average is go down. Oh, what if I got a D? Oh, that'd be terrible. So you kind of. It creates stress. So learning should not create stress. If you're focused on the effort that you put it, that you put in a lot of effort and it seems to have paid off.

00:32:49:20 - 00:33:08:06

Abhijit Bhaduri

The moment you see that, then your focus is on the effort, not the outcome. So you almost sort of, you know, put the focus back. It's 90% is really on the, effort that you put in. You really put in so many, ideas to work, you know, because you tried learning from this person. You learn from that.

00:33:08:09 - 00:33:24:01

Abhijit Bhaduri

And this is really built a deeper understanding. And that's fantastic. So your effort has resulted in deeper understanding. The moment I frame it in terms of effort, I'm using can do X work. And that is I think is really powerful.

00:33:24:03 - 00:33:34:26

Richie Cotton

All right. Cool. So, the second skill you mentioned was around, teaching skills. So, talking to suppose you learning something, why might you want to teach it as well?

00:33:34:28 - 00:33:58:08

Abhijit Bhaduri

You want to teach it for two reasons. One is, you know, a it is, if you think about a journey from selfish terms that, when you teach someone your mind, actually, is far more than that because you know that you are going to have to determine, what you are just learning. You begin to process that information in different ways.

00:33:58:08 - 00:34:16:10

Abhijit Bhaduri

So periodically, if you're reading something, take a break for five minutes after you read, let's say for 15, 20 minutes, you read, you take a break and you say, what did I just read? How would I explain it to somebody who doesn't know this? And you create, you know, a simplified version of what you just read.

00:34:16:13 - 00:34:43:12

Abhijit Bhaduri

That is a really, really powerful way in which it solidifies your own understanding and then, find creative ways to do it. Can I do it visually? Can I? So that's what got me hooked on to, on the sketch notes that, you know, I use on my website or my LinkedIn newsletter. I use all the sketches to simplify what I'm doing sometimes to create a cartoon, because I find a funny side to the problem, and I create a cartoon with it.

00:34:43:12 - 00:35:05:15

Abhijit Bhaduri

Or I illustrated in some creative ways. It is a way in which I'm solidifying my own understanding of that, too. When you put it in that forum for people to learn and learn and grow from, of course you're helping them. But what it also does is people will ask you questions. Hey, you said this last year you had said this.

00:35:05:21 - 00:35:31:15

Abhijit Bhaduri

Which of these is true? How do you reconcile those? It's sort of forces you to think about new kinds of ways to structure your knowledge. So this whole two way process that teaching somebody create is a really powerful way of learning. So if you think about, you know, there are of course, let's say you buy a mixer grinder, you buy anything, you will have you buy a new phone, you buy a new camera.

00:35:31:17 - 00:35:51:00

Abhijit Bhaduri

The manufacturer creates a user, guide, you know, will say it's got these features. There's got this. That's one very structured way of doing things. But if you see the real value comes not from the structured ones, but those little bits and pieces that people have created, they say, oh, is your screen going blank every time you do this?

00:35:51:06 - 00:36:12:25

Abhijit Bhaduri

Here's how I fixed it. I say, yeah, this is what I did because it talks about it in terms of problems. And that is the best way to teach people what is the problem they will solve. Whereas when you look at the manufacturers, the mistake they make is they always solve it in terms of the knowledge flow that you are now unboxing it, there are two switches on the side.

00:36:12:25 - 00:36:34:07

Abhijit Bhaduri

Three people figured out a lot of these things themselves, but what happens is somebody could make a video and say there are three switches, not two. What is the third switch for now I'm interested. Yeah, this is the video for me. So when you create a searchable version for your idea, you're also helping yourself to frame that knowledge.

00:36:34:09 - 00:36:37:05

Abhijit Bhaduri

So that's a really powerful way to do it.

00:36:37:07 - 00:36:59:02

Richie Cotton

That's very cool. So I do like the idea. I mean, I see a lot of great ideas there, but, I like the idea that teaching doesn't have to be like, okay, I'm standing up in front of the classroom and and telling 20 people about what I know. It can just be as simple as, if you learn something, then you take notes, and then you're effectively just teaching yourself about the stuff that you've just learned.

00:36:59:04 - 00:37:21:14

Richie Cotton

But I just don't like the idea of cartoons. That's a very cool idea. My cartooning skills are not great, but yet anyway. But, yes, but, that is a nice way of, just transforming, the medium you're working in. It's going to help you, think about what you just learned. All right. So that's our last point about showing people what you just been learning.

00:37:21:17 - 00:37:30:22

Richie Cotton

That sort of seems to naturally lead to the idea of building some kind of community about what you're learning about. Can you talk me through, what tips do you have for building a community?

00:37:30:25 - 00:38:00:03

Abhijit Bhaduri

When you create a community of like minded people, it could be a community where they are exploring things, you know? So, for example, a, you know, book club is a good example of a community. So it just brings a couple of people in the neighborhood who meet, to discuss the books that they are reading. Sometimes, you know, somebody will, come up with an idea that, you know, you're trying to solve the problem, which is that, you know, a lot of writers communities get writers together to say that, okay?

00:38:00:05 - 00:38:20:13

Abhijit Bhaduri

You're trying to write a novel. I'm also trying to write a novel. What are you grappling with? And I could say I'm grappling with the story. Like, you could say you're grappling with the characterization of the things. And sometimes you can get an invite. A writer, seasoned writer who can come and say, here's how I do it. And it's a different possibilities in your head.

00:38:20:15 - 00:38:46:25

Abhijit Bhaduri

So the whole idea of a community is to expand, your worldview beyond what you know and the way your friend. So, you know, a good example of that has some of these, gaming consultants, etc.. You know, one of the big uses of this has been to get people to exercise in a very creative way that, you know, some of the people in senior living communities use these little Xbox games, etc..

00:38:46:25 - 00:39:23:14

Abhijit Bhaduri

So that's some kind of move with this. And they are doing that. And that's a great way to think about exercise. You are not looking at it as a kind of punishment. So you can create opportunities where your solution actually helps to solve a problem for somebody else, which could be a very creative different problem. Your podcast can solve a problem for me that I can listen to the podcast while I'm exercising on the treadmill, and instead of that being a chore, it becomes something exciting for me and I can say, wow, I could listen to a 40 minute podcast and I could, you know, work for 40 minutes without having to say, oh gosh,

00:39:23:14 - 00:39:29:25

Abhijit Bhaduri

I have another 30 minutes of walking to do so. It's a much smarter way of doing it.

00:39:29:28 - 00:39:47:27

Richie Cotton

Wonderful. All right, so, what was the third skill? Physical was, storytelling. Now, on this show, we've had a lot of episodes around data. Storytelling is one of our favorite topics. One of the things that jumped out to me in the book was, you advocated for this thing called the Pixar story structure. Now, I like many people, I'm a fan of Pixar movies.

00:39:48:02 - 00:39:50:01

Richie Cotton

So can you talk me through what is this thing?

00:39:50:03 - 00:40:14:07

Abhijit Bhaduri

If you look at any of. I mean, I've got too many favorites of these, films, but if you take any of the Pixar movies, they all have a certain kind of a framework that they all look at that and it's become so, famous that it's now called the Pixar Method, which is that, you know, it all begins with Once Upon a Time, and, you know, which describes the way the world was, at one stage.

00:40:14:07 - 00:40:36:20

Abhijit Bhaduri

So you say, you know, somebody was living in China, your place. Everything was great. And you kind of describe how the life used to be. It was all peaceful. Nothing went wrong. Everything was perfect. Everything was great. And then you introduce the most important element of storytelling, which is the conflict. And then suddenly one day, something happened.

00:40:36:22 - 00:40:57:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

You know, the person got lost. The person, you know, got hurt or something happened. They were invaders. There was a monster. There was, you know, lightning. What it was something changed. That old existing world order. So that's your third set up, and then you kind of move on to, the different aspects of the story because of that.

00:40:57:18 - 00:41:38:27

Abhijit Bhaduri

Something happened then, because those two things happened, something else happened then because of that. So you can have a couple of versions of that. And then the final version is until the entire thing got sorted, because, you know, the person who was lost got found and they were reunited. And, you know, this thing happened and it's a great way to end the story and a positive thing, but you will realize, one of the things, which is not talked about as much is that in the picture structure, great storytelling actually begins when there is a conflict and stories and when it says, and they lived happily ever after.

00:41:38:27 - 00:41:58:15

Abhijit Bhaduri

So, you know, when there is no problem, it's actually the end of a story. So every time you are thinking of a story, you can say that, well, this was how, you have been handling your data. Then one day this particular thing happens, your server goes out and then your data is all garbled. How do you receive it?

00:41:58:15 - 00:42:19:09

Abhijit Bhaduri

Then the person tried to contact this, then they tried to do this, then they do this and that, all of that, until they came, to your solution. And then you kind of, you know, solve the problem for them. So that's one of the ways in which, you know, you frame the story in this format. It's a time tested thing, and it's a very powerful way.

00:42:19:09 - 00:42:19:24

Abhijit Bhaduri

I love it.

00:42:19:24 - 00:42:41:29

Richie Cotton

So I definitely like the idea of having, a structure to how you go about, telling your story. Yeah. Maybe, new sort of, career goal is to have, like, everyone in the meeting room just crying as though is like a toy, like one of the Toy Story movies. Just have, some sort of just bring some emotion to, to your business meeting.

00:42:42:01 - 00:42:59:07

Richie Cotton

That should be, a lot of fun. Cool. So, what was next? I think personal branding was your next skill. So, I think you said it's important to have some kind of personal brand. Now, I think this is something a lot of people get mixed up with. So, what's the difference between having a personal brand and being an influencer?

00:42:59:10 - 00:43:31:28

Abhijit Bhaduri

An influencer is one kind of an application of a strong personal brand. But a strong brand can be in any profession. I mean, what do you think about your favorite sports first, you know, so you have hundreds of people who play basketball. And if I asked you who's your favorite basketball player? Part of it is that, you know, your favorite player is your favorite player because that's a strong personal brand and multiple things, but it's built on the central element that whatever, just the kind of work that they do, they're better at it than anybody else.

00:43:31:28 - 00:43:51:27

Abhijit Bhaduri

So that's the real sense of a strong personal brand that, you know, whether it's your baseball player, whether it's your soccer player, whether it's your tennis player or artist to musician, anyone that you can think of or your favorite data scientists, all your, you know, the person you really look up to, who changed that field, your favorite designer.

00:43:51:27 - 00:44:12:09

Abhijit Bhaduri

All of them have one thing in common. They're pretty much the best, in what they do. So the sense the foundational piece, without which nothing else happens in your brand, is that you're really, really, really, really good at what you do. Once you do that, they kind of, you know, look at the other skills. We talked about that.

00:44:12:14 - 00:44:31:29

Abhijit Bhaduri

How do you teach others? Because you're really great at it, which is fine, but it has no value for me because I'm never going to be as good. But imagine a series where your favorite sports person or your favorite musician says, I'm going to teach you 15 minutes every week. You know how to play one guitar chord.

00:44:32:02 - 00:44:50:24

Abhijit Bhaduri

And, you know, to a variation, we'll pick one of my songs and we are going to play it a lot. And that's an amazing way to build a community. So you were asking, what's the right way to build a community? One of the things that you do best and then teach somebody else. That's one of the best ways to build a community.

00:44:50:27 - 00:45:17:07

Abhijit Bhaduri

So, that's, you know, an incredible rate of cross your personal brand because as you're helping people, your own craft improves, because teaching improves you. Teaching also improves the other person and you're creating that community, and your brand is built around that. You know, the larger your brand, then, you know, the more number of people will find your content relevant and they find it interesting.

00:45:17:10 - 00:45:39:03

Abhijit Bhaduri

So your skills are relevant for them because, you know, if somebody teaches you a skill which you have no idea what it is, so take a sport which you have no interest in, you know, and if that is what somebody is teaching you, you are not going to do that. You know, if you are not a person who's interested in, sports and I give you ten examples of that, you are not going to watch it.

00:45:39:03 - 00:45:57:19

Abhijit Bhaduri

If you are not interested in movies, you are not going to watch it or the genre of movies. So it has to be relevant and it has to be interesting. So when you do that, you, the people who can do it well are not only great storytellers, they are also great puzzle brands. So that's what it is all about.

00:45:57:21 - 00:46:12:25

Richie Cotton

Okay, so I like that it's not. Well, I guess you said you got to be an expert in something and maybe that's the hard first step, but the, the personal branding element is around persuading other people or demonstrating to other people that you are this expert in this particular topic.

00:46:12:27 - 00:46:41:09

Abhijit Bhaduri

And that they can benefit from it. I mean, you build your personal brand. Influencers are people who are able to sell a lot of a lot of people in the audience that what they do, you know, if they tried it, it could improve their lives in some way. So, you know, Mr. Beast has a very definite way of entertaining, which we can almost compete with any of the movies that you see, you can either watch one of those episodes or you can do something like that.

00:46:41:12 - 00:46:47:05

Abhijit Bhaduri

And for those people who follow Mr. Beast, that's the community that he's built.

00:46:47:07 - 00:46:53:00

Richie Cotton

Okay. Yes, there's a certain amount of consistency in the Mr. Beast style of communication.

00:46:53:02 - 00:47:18:12

Abhijit Bhaduri

I mean, I'm not saying that that's that's necessarily the recommended format for building a community. And that's an example. But you can take any one of the people that you admired, all of them have, you know, their own style of doing something. So it's actually three things. I would say it's art, business and craft. So craft is that, you know, let's say is there is there are 20 versions of doing something.

00:47:18:12 - 00:47:37:18

Abhijit Bhaduri

You are so good, you know, all 20 of them that your craft art is you have almost created the 21st version of doing the same thing. It's your unique style. But I look at that. You can immediately make out, oh, this has to be done by a person. Three is the business of it. So you are trying to solve a problem with that.

00:47:37:18 - 00:47:44:12

Abhijit Bhaduri

Now that's really the third element. When you combine the this is the ABC of you know, the personal branding.

00:47:44:14 - 00:47:47:23

Richie Cotton

Okay. I like that, mixing art business and craft together. Okay.

00:47:47:25 - 00:47:54:03

Abhijit Bhaduri

Art business and trust all three. Art is equally important. You create your own style of storytelling.

00:47:54:05 - 00:48:16:08

Richie Cotton

Wonderful. All right. So, skill number five is about having a portfolio of skills. So I guess this links nicely back to the career 3.0 idea where you've not just got, a single area of expertise, you've got lots of kind of skills merge together into a whole. So I guess, how do you decide on, like, good pairs of skills or groups of skills to go together?

00:48:16:10 - 00:48:40:15

Abhijit Bhaduri

Sometimes the best pairs of skills are things that, you know, that go together because, it's the polar opposite. So people who are great in storytelling can learn about data, you know, understand the nuances of data, people who are great and let's say analytics can figure out how to convey in a manner which the business people can understand, you know?

00:48:40:15 - 00:48:59:13

Abhijit Bhaduri

So that's one of the ways to do it or to, look at, you know, teaching a language which is still emerging. Nobody knows how to do that. It's cutting edge. It's just still emerging. Lots of things are happening. Can you make sense of it and simplify it for people? So there are multiple ways in which you can do that.

00:48:59:15 - 00:49:33:03

Abhijit Bhaduri

Each time you're taking a completely different audience, you know, you're creating your own pathway into a different network, a different ecosystem, you know, so students is one ecosystem, business, professionals, it's another ecosystem. Colleagues is another ecosystem. Sports people is a third ecosystem. Movies is another ecosystem. So, you know, the more pathways in which you can, build connections, the greater way, in which you can create opportunities for yourself.

00:49:33:06 - 00:49:55:24

Abhijit Bhaduri

A wonderful way to do that is to think about all the hobbies that you had growing up as a kid. Each of them is potentially a different ecosystem, you know? So like I used to do a little bit of painting when I was growing up. Now I use it in the work that I do. So, you know, I never did it with the idea that one day there's going to be something called social media, and there's going to be something called blogging.

00:49:55:24 - 00:50:11:27

Abhijit Bhaduri

And I'm going to do that, you know? So I didn't know that. I just did it for the fun of it, or I wrote for the fun of it. I used to enjoy writing little stories. And then when, you know, at some stage I published a book. And then I kind of said, how can I use this to, write a newsletter?

00:50:12:02 - 00:50:29:26

Abhijit Bhaduri

So you create that and then you say, how can I illustrate my own newsletter? And you create those possibilities so your continuous stream, bringing those, ecosystems together and you're also trying your way out into different ecosystems. So it's the, the this polarity actually works really well.

00:50:29:29 - 00:50:44:03

Richie Cotton

That's really interesting. Talk about the idea that, you, you take on skills and you have no idea what they can be useful in the future. Just thinking, like, early in my career, I used to work in a call center. It was in a for doing debt collection, so I had to phone people up, ask them for money.

00:50:44:05 - 00:50:57:26

Richie Cotton

Turns out this skill really useful for podcasting because you have to contact people. Ask them, oh, will you come on the show? It's very similar to skill. I had no idea. I just always are kind of rubbish minimum wage job at the time. But it's actually turned out to, to, you.

00:50:57:26 - 00:51:05:25

Abhijit Bhaduri

Know, so. So is that how it works for everyone who's a guest, on your podcast, you end up by saying no. Okay. Can you give me the money?

00:51:05:28 - 00:51:11:09

Richie Cotton

Yes. We'll have that conversation afterwards.

00:51:11:12 - 00:51:12:29

Abhijit Bhaduri

Nice.

00:51:13:01 - 00:51:24:17

Richie Cotton

Yeah. But that's called the, the idea. You know, you don't necessarily need to know how you have the skill, the time. It's just, you know, go and learn something. You might benefit later on. You might not enable, so we'll see how you go.

00:51:24:18 - 00:51:50:12

Abhijit Bhaduri

Actually, I think you're talking about something which I am. Sorry I interrupted you, but, you know, it just triggered an idea that lots and lots of organizations make this big mistake. That well, before the people have learned something, especially in a new area, they make a report about what is the ROI of learning this. You know, when you start to do that, you're actually killing the enthusiasm of learning something new.

00:51:50:14 - 00:52:15:21

Abhijit Bhaduri

Because when people are looking at learning something new, they have no idea whether they'll enjoy it, whether they'll be good at it, whether they'll abandon it halfway through, or whether they'll go the whole hog and make that as the next big career shift that they will try. So allowing opportunities for people to sample different things and leave it, then maybe come back to it at a later point of time in a very different way.

00:52:15:24 - 00:52:38:24

Abhijit Bhaduri

So start looking at the ROI of things that people have completed fully, and they are able to use it because that's the time to be sure. It's not at the beginning. It's also you've done that and you build that. You've tried out the skill. Now people can start, you know, and don't make that measurement. The single biggest reason to invest in something or not invest, that's a straight, surefire way to kill curiosity.

00:52:38:28 - 00:52:40:15

Abhijit Bhaduri

Anything.

00:52:40:17 - 00:52:59:20

Richie Cotton

Absolutely. And obviously I speak to a lot of, learning and development, managers, through my career that there is often a lot of pressure on them to try and justify what the company's spending on training. And so you need to have some kind of measure of what kind of success the training program or some sort of measure of that investment.

00:52:59:22 - 00:53:18:24

Richie Cotton

But actually for learners, maybe you just want to try stuff that is sort of related to your career and, and see how you get on them and not have too much pressure at the beginning. So, that's kind of interesting stuff. But we've still got one more skill to go that was about, being part of multiple ecosystems that are unique.

00:53:18:29 - 00:53:23:14

Richie Cotton

So this is a bit of, an interesting skill. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

00:53:23:16 - 00:53:46:21

Abhijit Bhaduri

Think about yourself. As a venture capitalist, you know what? What they do is they invest in many different, kinds of startups. So one could be a startup in shipping, you know, one could be a startup in healthcare, another one could be a data science related startup. So a fourth one could be a sports related sports management startup.

00:53:46:24 - 00:54:13:03

Abhijit Bhaduri

You need to know a fair bit about each of these to understand what is it that they're trying to do. Because at the end of it, you make the most amount of money when it solves a problem, which nobody else has done before. But it also means that, you know, you're taking the greatest amount of risk. So being part of different ecosystems is about taking risks with the kind of, people you hang around with.

00:54:13:07 - 00:54:40:20

Abhijit Bhaduri

And also if you hang around with a sport people and music people and data science people and writers and, you know, people who are, you know, solving something, who are Uber drivers of various teams. The more diverse professions you hang around with, you begin to build a deeper understanding of your own profession, and you build a deeper understanding of how you can solve problems for them.

00:54:40:23 - 00:55:05:07

Abhijit Bhaduri

So you constantly each different ecosystem can actually help you discover opportunities that you otherwise wouldn't have had no idea. So, it's a great way to, find ways in which you can stay relevant if one particular, ecosystem is breaking up, you know, you can become a part of a completely different ecosystem. And that creates opportunities for you.

00:55:05:10 - 00:55:13:18

Richie Cotton

I'm curious, how do you go about networking, outside of your core area of expertise? How do you find all these other people to speak to?

00:55:13:20 - 00:55:37:07

Abhijit Bhaduri

It's pretty straightforward. You know, if you're working inside an organization, if you're employed, then, you know, make the, the time to meet up with your colleagues from completely different functions. You know, if you're a data science person and you want to meet up with people in finance or meet with people who are in sales, meet up with people who are in marketing and not know about their work, you know, what do they do?

00:55:37:07 - 00:56:00:24

Abhijit Bhaduri

What kind of style? What's that they like? And, you know, start building friendships, which are non transactional. So, not just be curious about the kind of work that they do. You know, and, and maybe when you have met three, 4 or 5 people, have a meet up with all those five people, bring them together and you might be creating a community of, you know, curious people like that.

00:56:00:24 - 00:56:19:25

Abhijit Bhaduri

And, chances are that if maybe some of them know each other, some of them don't know each other, but the fact that you decide to hang around with each other, you build not only deep friendships because your deepest friendships are sometimes built on people with whom it didn't start off as a transaction. It just started off as friendship in general.

00:56:19:27 - 00:56:39:20

Abhijit Bhaduri

So I think that's the right way to sort of do it. But if you are outside of, an organization, you are a sort of contractor. You know, you work for yourself. Then one of the ways to do it is, you know, when you go to any of these places, let's say you go to a conference or you, join a webinar and you engage with the people who are also there.

00:56:39:24 - 00:57:04:08

Abhijit Bhaduri

So the more you speak up, the more you kind of share a point of view, the more you kind of say, hey, this is what it is. And if you can't do any of those, you know, create a little blog post saying, I attended this particular webinar, here's what I learned, here's what I did, and people will start engaging with you, even if you don't necessarily reach out to a lot of people just, you know, doing that social media makes it possible for you to do all of that.

00:57:04:10 - 00:57:07:21

Abhijit Bhaduri

So that's how I kind of think about it.

00:57:07:24 - 00:57:24:08

Richie Cotton

That's wonderful. So, now we've explored the answer. It just sounds like asked, how do I make friends? Which has they're pretty lonely, but, yeah, many different ways to make friends. And I do like the idea of, like, don't just treat everything as a transaction. Just, you know, have a chat with people, maybe organize an event and and you're probably.

00:57:24:08 - 00:57:36:07

Richie Cotton

They're wonderful. All right. So, we had a lot of different, bits of career advice there. What's the most important thing then? Like, do you have any final advice for, helping people figure out their career?

00:57:36:09 - 00:58:01:06

Abhijit Bhaduri

I kind of, but that's a tough one. But I would say that, if you can bring the little element of fun and play into whatever you do, you know, that's the most interesting way to, stay relevant, because, you know, when you're having fun, you'd like to try out many different things. You know, when remember that time when you were growing up, you would have had your hobbies.

00:58:01:06 - 00:58:20:26

Abhijit Bhaduri

You try out different things and, you know, there was no pressure to say, okay, if you are, you know, making an omelet today, it means are you deciding and committing, therefore, for the rest of your lives, that you will be a chef? Nobody said that you tried out, so you painted something. Nobody said, okay, that means you are not going to be a chef.

00:58:20:26 - 00:58:33:23

Abhijit Bhaduri

You will now be an artist. Stop thinking about it like that. Just enjoy it and have fun. And whatever you do, build elements of play into it and that makes it just more engaging.

00:58:33:26 - 00:58:42:06

Richie Cotton

Yeah, build elements of play into your life, into your work. It's the fun way to live. Excellent. Cool. So, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate.

00:58:42:09 - 00:58:51:10

Abhijit Bhaduri

Thank you very much for having me. I, you know, I hope it's going to be of value to your audience. And I'm grateful that you had me on the show. Thank you.