How Generative AI is Changing Leadership with Christie Smith, Founder of the Humanity Institute and Kelly Monahan, Managing Director, Research Institute

And because of that, that forever changed the way that those cultures behave. And again, I think what we're trying to pick out. People are flawed. We're going to make mistakes. But what you do in those moments what we talk about is taking advantage of those moments to actually elevate humanity and learn from them.

And I think, I don't know, Christy, if you feel the same way. I think we have plenty to learn from these days.

Christie Smith: Yeah, I agree 100%. think, too, that we are in my mind's eye at a really unique point. In the socio political and economic conditions around the world, which is making leadership harder than it's ever been. We used to see distinct lines in business. I can remember this early on in my career that you go to work and you check your humanity at the door and all you do is, do the job that you were hired to do when you were getting paid to do.

 You know, we have evolved, and I think the pandemic did accelerate this to a place where we no longer have that hard division between what is going on in our personal lives or in our communities with what is going on at work. And because of that, and because most people are looking to the private sector for some direction.

For some help. , we look at organizations today almost like embassies where people come in and can feel safe and can feel as though they're getting, you know, Maslow's hierarchies of needs, met. And therefore, I think leadership is harder than it's ever been.

Richie Cotton: plenty of challenges there. So, that's kind of interesting that you think the sort of external economic challenges Kelly, you mentioned things like the financial crisis pandemic, and then you got internal crises. And then, yeah, there's just a general change in culture about , what does it mean to be at work?

certainly uh, often difficult to delineate work life from home life, I think, for a lot of people. I know in your book you advocate for this idea of human centered workplaces. Can you tell me what that means? Yeah, Christy, do you want to go first this time? 

Christie Smith: Yeah, I think that, what we're really focused on in terms of human centered work is simply, putting humans back at the center. I think, you know, my career, what I have looked for to build an organization is how do we solve for the humanity in our organizations and thus solve for the communities in which that humanity lives, 

Christie Smith: Part of why we wrote this book, Richie, is because we both have a passion for solving for humanity in the workplace. Because if we solve for humanity in the workplace, we solve for the communities in which those workplaces reside. And part of the exploration in and the research in this book was to really look at what do humans require At work, because those requirements have changed over decades.

 And what we found is that humans require, four things purpose in the work that they do. And frankly, that organizations insides match their outsides. So it's nice to have little purpose statements and, you know, value statements up on the wall, but do you really live that? And , in conjunction with that, you know, employees want to feel as though their work is tied to that purpose.

The second is agency. Having the decision and the ability and the autonomy to do your work when, where, and how you want to do it. And that you can have that trust from your leader to make decisions, to do your work, but also autonomy and agency and defining yourself through your own words, not by some structures that many organizations have.

The third area is well being. think this has taken on a whole different meaning since the pandemic and really looking at individuals employees through the lens of not just their financial well being or health care benefits, but through well being more broadly. And then the final one is connection is how do we build connection?

How do we reimagine the workplace so that you can build connection in, remote settings, hybrid settings and at the office?

Richie Cotton: I like that there's sort of a step by step, or at least a set of principles for like what makes a great workplace. And it seems like these are quite close to like a lot of the things that most people care about in life in general. You know, like, it's your, you know, Physical, mental health, financial health, are these things all good?

Do you have connection to other people? So, think we definitely need to dig into , those four things , in a bit more depth later. But before we get to that, if we've got this idea of human centered workplaces, one of the big, tech stories in the last few years has been, like, the rise of AI.

So, how does the idea of a human centered workplace sort of align with the idea of, Pushing AI into everything.

Christie Smith: Well, listen, I think that like anything and Kelly, I'm dying to get your opinion on this. You know, we have looked at technology and the rapid evolution of technology in the last 10 years, 15 years at Magic Bullets. Oh, these are going to help just change our lives. This is going to be all about productivity.

This is going to be all about, , making work easier. And, think the first thing we need to do, Richie, is just put technology in its right place. We believe A. I. Is really important. It's not going away. It's incredibly valuable within the workplace, but it also requires human intelligence.

To have meaning and to give meaning to it. And, we think about AI as something that can certainly advance how we do work. But right now, it's just simply a side of a desk thing that employees need to learn. 

Kelly Monahan: Yeah, you know, I I agree with you, Christy, the way you just said that we have to put AI in its right place. I do think it's going to be creating disruption, though, in the new year, especially as it moves from generative AI to much more agentic AI and it's able to actually complete tasks. And so, you know, as I think about how do we keep humans at the center of this?

I think it's absolutely critical, and it goes to what you just said, we have to start skilling the workforce. Work is going to fundamentally look different. I think there's too many leaders with their head in the sand, or there's just a lot of confusion of not knowing where to get started. But the reality is technology continues to disrupt the way we think about work, the tasks that we do, jobs that we do today look very different than the jobs we do 20 years ago.

And I think that timeline is getting quicker and quicker in terms of that transformation. And the reality is whether we want to admit it or not, as people, we have to continue to adapt and evolve alongside of this. And I do think that's a leader's responsibility. To help inform and create the culture and the time and the capacity to allow people to develop alongside of this.

And the last thing I'll say here is you know, from a leadership perspective, this cannot just be an efficiency play. This has to be a learning, a transformation, innovative play here. If not, we will just kind of continue to repeat history where this will have a substitution effect. We'll continue to have inequality and it will be disruptive in a way that does not benefit the majority of people.

This technology can truly be different because of the way it democratizes knowledge and access. You don't need a coding degree. You don't need to understand coding in order to access this. And so I am somewhat optimistic if we just can get this moment right. I actually think this is going to be a technology that can benefit many of us.

Richie Cotton: that's interesting then. So I think that is like the big fear of a lot of people from AI is it's just gonna take the job away. They're gonna be unemployed and then that's terrible. So it sounds like this is a bad path where AI is just used for just cost savings and people get laid off. And then you got the good version where people get trained in AI skills and they can use the technology.

And then that's a sort of happier scenario where people are more productive. 

Christie Smith: You know, I think that there is increased responsibility of managers and leaders in making sure that employees have what they need with these new technological capabilities. , I think that there are several things. One is that they've got to improve education and invest in skill development and not just invest from a monetary resource standpoint, but invest in terms of giving employees time to learn these capabilities.

It can't be a side of the desk, as I said earlier. The second is we need, governance models for AI and how and where and in what capacity do we use it. And how do we use the human skills of discernment and ability to understand how the output of AI will work or not work in a certain situation.

 The third is focus on people and what matters to them in completing the tasks of their work. And how is technology used to support that. And how is it further used to connect people's work to the purpose of The organization to building cultures, as Kelly said, and, , keeping learning at the forefront so that employees really can develop alongside the technology.

Richie Cotton: Yeah, that's interesting. I think like you just nailed a lot of the problems in learning and development there. It's just like making sure that people have time to actually learn the skills and they are going to be relevant to their jobs. I know that one of the things you say in your book is that skills tend to become commoditized over time.

, talk me through, , what that means and what the implications of that are. Kelly, do you want to take this one?

Kelly Monahan: Yeah, sure. So, you know, we've seen this in multiple times before across different technologies that they come into play. Technology tends to take over tasks that humans have traditionally do, can do. And as a result of that, that actually decreases the value of what people are willing to pay for that particular skill or that particular task.

 And so, you know, as we think about when Kristi and I wrote this book, what is the next wave of skills that's going to be commoditized? Because of the next wave of AI, AI has been around since the 1950s. But the new models that we have and again, the way that it's being able to do unsupervised decision making and learning is really a new realm for us.

 And that is going to go after jobs and tasks that we haven't necessarily seen before from technology. And that oftentimes In the more white collar professions and knowledge and service work that typically has been somewhat protected and actually been elevated from previous technology advances. And I think that's a bit what we're, you know, a canary in the coal mine right now of signaling is this revolution that we have not given enough attention to maybe because of the way that we've perceived blue collar work or other industries.

It's coming for college educated, STEM educated individuals. And I think it's going to surprise people, the level of disruption that's going to take place. And so, that's just what we mean by a skill becoming commoditized, is technology is able to compete with humans for that same skill, and therefore decrease the value in which people are willing to pay for it.

Richie Cotton: Yeah, that's interesting. I suppose, if you think back to, like, the middle of the 20th century, there's all this Industrialization, all these sort of production line things that was going for blue collar jobs and now it's, white collar jobs were being taken over by, or AI is competing with white collar jobs now.

And I suppose, if you work in technology, you get used to your skills going out of date pretty quickly. So yeah, I've had a few cases of that myself where it's like, yeah, I spent years learning this and now no one uses it anymore. So, Do you think that's going to happen to broader range of jobs now?

The idea that these skills go out of date quicker? I don't know who wants to take this Christy, maybe?

Christie Smith: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think that there's no segment of industries or the market that isn't going to be impacted by technology and , the need for skills. I mean, if , you look at some of the research that we did in the book, over 87 percent of organizations face current or impending skill gaps.

And, cost to that and the implications of that is right now costing the global economy 8. 8 trillion a year. That's Microsoft, Amazon and Apple combined in revenues. we also saw that in 2014, the Manpower Group did a study and that found that only 30 6 percent of global employees were having tough time to find the right skills in their organizations.

 In 2024, that's increased to 75%. So three out of every four global companies is struggling and having a hard time finding the right skills for their companies. And the half life of skills is, , just accelerating the issue of finding the right skills. So I don't think there's any segment of the market that isn't going to face this.

We certainly saw that in some of the examples that we give, I mean, look at the writer's strike in Hollywood last year. You know, that's a great example of where an industry that we didn't necessarily think would be challenged by technology because of its creativity was absolutely challenged.

So yeah, I think we're going to continue to see this in every aspect of our lives.

Richie Cotton: Okay, so we're in a new world where skills go out of date faster. Almost every company is struggling to fill these skill gaps because they don't have the right skills in house. But I guess on the other side certainly in a lot of economies around the world, my job seekers are like, Well, I applied for a hundred jobs.

No one's hiring me. What do I do? So how do you I guess cross this skill gap and make sure that job seekers and employers can match effectively?

Kelly Monahan: So I think what we're seeing, Richie, right now, because I hear this all the time of people, we talk about there's a skills gap, organizations say there's not enough talent, but you ask the average worker today, they can't seem to find a job or job hop if they want to. I think what we're seeing, and we talk about this in the book, is an imbalanced labor market where the supply and demand are out of equilibrium.

So, you know, what we see when you look at the jobs report that comes out every month, where we're seeing the growth occur is in, you know, what Christy and I begin to unpack as gray collar work. Yeah. which is the combination of digital and physical roles in healthcare and manufacturing in construction.

 And the reality is there's a lot of people who are looking for just pure digital knowledge based work today. And what we're actually seeing is that contract a bit because of AI, but also just because if we're going to go back to the pandemic. It dramatically changed customer habits and buying habits during that time, and a lot of technology companies in particular became somewhat bloated during this time to meet that demand.

That demand has, since equalized as a result of that, those industries are contracting a bit. And so the question is going to become for leaders is how do they solve for this? Is how do we actually get more people into these gray collar professions that have a strong physical component or , industry component, whether that's health care, Even retail construction, but also the digital side, you know, and being able to work alongside whether that's a I Internet of Things, , five G technologies.

And so I think that's to me is where the pent up frustration is happening is that's where the demand is. And we don't quite have a workforce that's really ready to bridge that. That means blue collar workers moving into more digital type roles. And white collar workers, you know, being able to really service and understand the gray collared that they work within.

Chris, I don't know if you'd add anything to that.

Christie Smith: No, I mean, I think, I think you're a hundred percent right for, listeners. Just think how rapidly this is changing when you go to get your car serviced mean, it's amazing to me how quickly I'm walking into retail stores and all I'm having to do is drop my clothes into a bin and they read, .

every item that's in there, and then, I use the electronic card , to check out. And, what's happening to all the employees there, I was in the airport the other day, and this is remarkable to me at the pace of change, is that , they now have electronic wheelchairs.

So humans who, can't walk for some reason, can't rely on humans to push a wheelchair. And we now have those electronically. So, I think that the workforce that's behind the scenes and has to now service all of these different disabilities Utilities is growing rapidly.

And so, yeah, I'm just in complete agreement with you, Kelly. And I would say this is not all about what's happening between, you know, in the corporate walls. It's happening everywhere.

Richie Cotton: Okay, that's fascinating. I have to say, self driving wheelchairs is something I've never considered before. Now you've mentioned it, it does sound like a genius idea. Okay. All right. So it seems like you're both in agreement that having some kind of digital skills plus some kind of physical component that that seems to be like a big growth area of the future.

So do you have any more advice on like, I guess, both leaders, how do you incorporate this into your own business, advantage and for individuals, how do you even get into great color work? not sure what the path is there.

Kelly Monahan: I think it's a great point. And I think a lot of this is just dealing with The industry structural changes that we're going to continue to take place. So this, I think, is going to become not necessarily by choice, but somewhat forced to be honest with you as the labor markets shake out.

 But I think the reality is you know, if you're a leader today, the one thing that we're seeing within the data is if you're You've got to be looking for specialized skills. I think for a long time we've relied on generalists within businesses, and this is especially if you think about business administration.

 That is the type of work that's going to be shrinking in the future because that is the exact work that's very suitable for the technology that we're seeing take place. And so as a result of that, what we're seeing continue to grow in demand and become important is specialized. And so whether that's specialized in a particular field, in a particular discipline, in a particular expertise, That to me is where I think the future is going.

We're seeing that on our Upwork platform. The freelancers who are earning the most or most in demand are getting actually more and more specialized within their realm. So that's, you know, my advice as we start thinking through, well, how do we move into some of this gray collar work? Figure out what's the specialty and what's your specialized skill set.

What can AI in particular automation and robotics actually do? And then where's that gap? And at the end of the day, I think the reason why it's a little hard to answer right now too is. I think there's going to be net new work that we're still being created right now that we are in the process of transforming within our organizations.

 That's the work that we need workers to go after is what's new. How do we create new innovation and value? I think we've focused for so long on efficiency. at a fault of this is not just doing more, faster, better, cheaper. This workforce resolution, I think this is actually doing something different with our time and our energy.

And I think that is still a big question mark. And I think that's where we're optimistic that hopefully leaders, and that's part of what we're hoping to do in Essentials, inspire And ask the what if questions and ask leaders to imagine a different type of work than what we can imagine today.

Christie Smith: I think that just, following that and you, started to talk about it on the tail end there, is that because of this shift that Kelly just articulated, we really demand a different kind of leader. Most leaders that have risen into their positions have been technical experts. Well, their skills are probably outdated.

 And , what we need in leadership, and certainly what we talk about at length in the book is that we need human powered leaders. We need leaders who know how to pick the best athletes, The best skills. How do you put that together? I mean, you could use the metaphor of great coaches with, you know, championship titles.

Teams like the Chicago Bulls or an orchestra, , conductor, what we need in leaders is how do you identify and build that team and help them be the best that they can be in their jobs, ? It's no longer the requirement for the leader to have grown up with 20 years experience in a field.

Because that field changed, gone away, whatever it is. You have to be what we call an emotionally mature leader. in order to lead teams fundamentally differently and that are changing so rapidly.

Richie Cotton: , that's interesting that the nature of leadership has changed. You can't expect to be an expert in everything your team does. And actually, it's more about empowering your team to make sure that each individual is successful. Actually, Kelly, do you have any more advice on then, on what makes a, strong leader that's going to help your whole team perform?

Kelly Monahan: Yeah, Kristen, hit the nail on the head. I mean, I think one of the things that we talk about that I just think is getting harder to do in our organizations today because of the lack of space and time. And one of the behaviors we talk about in Essential is cultivating curiosity, you know, relentless of curiosity around your people and the world around you.

And I think that's becoming a lost art in leadership. I think as Christy mentioned, so often leaders are meant to be the experts, they're meant to have the answers. And that's not the world we're operating in anymore. And actually, I think most people want to be in dialogue and want to help. Help leaders and organizations guide into the future.

So to me, what I think good leadership looks like today is really being curious about the world that's changing. I mean, Christine, I would admit to we have more questions than answers. As we think about, you know, projecting into the future. But the reality is if we can stay curious and if leadership can stay curious, I think that's going to surface both from not just the technology, but also the workforce again, solutions that we can't even imagine today.

And that's only going to come from a sense of curiosity.

Christie Smith: would add to that if I might, Richie. I think that there needs to be a fundamental mindset shift, leaders are no longer the experts in their field. they just aren't. They can't be. They can't develop the skills fast enough to be, So at some point, Yeah.

They have to have this mindset shift that it's not about me. It's actually about the team, this notion of suspending self interest for the growth, the development, and giving the team what they need to succeed and reach the objectives and goals of the company. And that's a huge ask for a lot of leaders who are in positions of power because You know, listen, they're responding to these changes in three ways that we found.

One is, Oh, you know, what got me here is what I'm going to continue to double down on over and over again. So I'm not changing. I'm going to wait it out because I'm going to retire within five years. So , I'm just going to coast and they're not going to do anything to me.

Or three, that, I'm going to really invest and change the way I lead. That's a very small percentage of leaders. Vis a vis number one and number two that I articulated. So we really have to begin to, and this is what we kind of, Kelly and I spent a lot of time formulating this framework of the emotionally mature leader to start with this suspension of self interest because you can't know it all.

You can't be it all. You are not, not at all. So

Richie Cotton: , that does sound like quite a big ask because these are Things like emotional maturity, like I'm sure everyone can pick some boss where you think, I'm not sure that really reconciles with the image of my head. So yeah that's interesting. You've got the maturity aspect, you've got the team player aspect, you've got the, I guess a, growth mindset aspect if you've got to be continually changing stuff, so there's a lot there.

Is there still room for sort of, requirements on sort of technical skills or other soft skills there? Oh, curiosity of the other one you mentioned as well, but yeah , is being a good leader? Is it purely about these soft skills or do you need other technical capabilities too? 

Kelly Monahan: , you know, I think for so often, these conversations have been siloed and separate, which is part of the problem, I think, of where we are today is you think a lot of soft skill development, and it's almost separate from the business. But what Christy and I are very clear on in the book in Essential is that essential leaders are really good at creating cultures of excellence and driving P& L statements.

This is not pursuing profits at the expense of people anymore. It's pursuing profits. Well, elevating people and that to me takes both hard and soft skills to get that combination, right? It's both science and art within many organizations. And if we look for the past 30 years I just think we've over rotated probably too much on the hard science side and really driving shareholder wealth Maximization at the expense of people I think what the future is demanding of us what customers are asking for what the workers are asking for us It's much more balanced and much more optimizing where we're optimizing profits, optimizing our resources.

So we're not at the expense of the planet either. And that to me is really what the essential leader is excelling at is being able to do both. So I hope that's really clear. This is essential leaders all about driving business outcomes at the end of the day elevating people while doing so.

Richie Cotton: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you don't want some sort of hippie to be workplace where everyone's happy, but you're not actually making any money because it's not

Kelly Monahan: not a not for profit.

Richie Cotton: long. Okay. All right, super. Okay. So, right back at the start Christie mentioned this idea of like different pillars of workplace wellbeing.

So I think it was things like autonomy and purpose and things like that. So, yeah, just want to take us through those four things again, and then we'll, go into them at a bit more depth.

Christie Smith: Yeah. , so what I talked about and what Kelly and I found in our research is, you know, given the changing climate over the last several years in terms of socio political economic change wars in Europe and in Middle East and this constant barrage of issues really facing companies and individuals within companies.

 we looked very much as to, well, how is this changed employee? perception and their requirements for leaders at work. And so what we found was there are four primary areas in which employees have requirements of leaders in their organizations. One is purpose. So does my organization live up to its purpose and value statements?

Do the insides match the outsides? Employees want to feel that they're part of something greater. That is making a contribution to the world. Not just economic, but they also have joined the company because in some way they're capitalists, as we were just talking about. But those things aren't mutually exclusive.

So purpose is huge for employees choosing where they work and if they stay at an organization. The second is agency. So, having more autonomy. In either decision making or when and how they work or where they work. Having more agency in how they define themselves. And the third area is well being.

 So looking at employees in a holistic manner, not just providing the basic benefits and compensation, but many more resources for employees because they're at work the majority of the time during the week. and the last area that we articulate and look at in the book is really around connection. How are we creating connection? In both a hybrid setting, a totally remote setting and on site setting. And that's becoming more and more important to employees.

Richie Cotton: Lots there of going beyond just like, well, I'm showing up to work today and that's it. At the end of the day, I get paid and I go home and don't think about it. this idea of going beyond and finding benefits for employees. What does that mean beyond just, well, you know, I'm giving them some, some money for what they're doing.

What kind of benefits are we talking here?

Kelly Monahan: Yeah, I think for so often , we've had a, the sense of a transactional relationship. I think, Rishi, what you just described is I'm going to give you a contribution and you know, I get a paycheck. But the reality is that's not how it's ever worked. I've done a lot of, Kristi and I both have done a lot of historical business research and even going back to industrial evolution, you saw a sense of workers wanting what Kristi just described, wanting a sense of purpose and meaning from their jobs, wanting that sense of connection and collegial.

, relationship and honestly, you know, we sang a lot within some of these worker diaries to of just wanting a boss that cares for them, ask them how they're doing and isn't just, trying to drive them for more efficiency. So I think these are core human needs that we've always had.

We're just at the time and moment, and we have a tremendous privilege to be able to actually start meeting these. We have the amount of resources that are required to do this. And I think, as Christy said at the very beginning of this podcast, this comes down to a leadership mindset shift more than anything else.

 And it's funny, I think, you know, I've worked in tech for a while, as has Christy, and I think we've over rotated when it comes to the, you used to talk about perks and benefits of creating these offices and having a masseuse come and, you know, make sure that you're not stressed during the day. But the reality is those were all choices to actually get us to stay at the job longer and actually was not driving that core well being that Christy just talked about in terms of connection and relation.

I think that's where leaders have to think through today, especially in distributed world. What does that look like? I don't think people are going to come work for a company because you have a beer keg or a ping pong table anymore. I think those days are over. I think to me, it's much more around, well, where can I actually do something greater than myself.

Where can I go home and actually feel good about what I'm doing when I talk to my friends and colleagues about that? And how do I do that with people I enjoy working with? I think that's really coming at the very top, and I do think the pandemic drove these core needs to the very top of how we think about work today.

Richie Cotton: Yeah, that's really interesting to think about, like, what works and what doesn't, for like getting you into work and getting you enjoying yourself. And yeah. I wouldn't bother coming in to work for a ping pong table. Snacks, on the other hand, definitely drive me into Free food is one of the things that does sometimes.

Christie Smith: It's good coffee. It's really good coffee. That works.

Richie Cotton: Yes yeah, coffee and snacks. Um, Yeah, that, that works pretty well, I guess. But the other stuff he's mentioned about just having your boss, , just ask about your day and say, well, you know, I guess, remember stuff about you, celebrate your wins, all these sort of, like, just Communication ideas, that's going to work pretty well just to engender some sort of sense of trust.

 Actually, along those lines, do you have any good tips for how you go about building good relationships between your colleagues? Because it seems like that's quite an important sort of tenant of this good workplace wellbeing.

Christie Smith: Yeah. I mean, I, think it's funny. You know, I get asked this question by leaders all the time. Like, how do I, , show up more human at work? , and it's always an interesting question. I, really get them to think about, well, how did you ever make friends? You know, where, how did you start? Not that your employees have to be your friends cause they don't, but how did you first engage in conversation?

Right? You started, it goes back to what Kelly was talking about, this notion of insatiable curiosity. You know, you go to a cocktail party and we're all going, , to holiday parties now and meeting new people. Well, how do you engage in conversation? And it's that simple. At work is that we don't have to, you know, I think this is a little bit of that mindset of seeing each other as human first, not as the title, not as boss, not as the competency that's showing up at work.

But really about the person who's showing up at work. And so I think that's where connection begins. Now, I think that there are a lot of things that companies can do, especially in a distributed world. I remember being at company where we did zip code dinners. that, people who lived in the same zip code, the company would give an allowance to say, Hey, everybody go get together for coffee, lunch, dinner, whatever.

But they provided those resources to do so. That was hugely meaningful. Today building connection in the workplace is simply we've all been on meetings where there are people in the room and people on the screen. really being conscious of the talk between breaks or just as they come in, engaging with the people on the screen just as you would we are talking.

Thank you. Being on video, , not, , having your avatar up there. Critically important in building connection and building that sense of curiosity of the team into even that virtual format. So I think there are a lot of things that companies can do to engage the workforce and that goes right back to the welfare of your employees, their own well being and their own satisfaction at work plays out.

Kelly Monahan: Christina is spot on. I think the other thing that often is kind of the invisible hand within organizations of how we're relating to each other is performance management. And I think that is the one thing that really needs to come, leaders need to critically think at today because the majority of performance management is wired for very self serving, very competitive, very individualistic behaviors.

And we know from human psychology that, you know, a good predictor of how human are going to behave is what you're rewarding and performing, , within their organization. And so I think this is one of the things that a systematic level to start tackling and thinking about how do we actually change performance management in a way that's about developing others.

Microsoft is a great example of this that overcame their last decade of performance. Realize their software engineers were working in silos, not helping one another out. And then they realized coding was moving from much more of an individual task to a team task. Changed 50 percent of the way that they reward software engineers today around how are they developing others around them?

How do they help someone else succeed within their organization? And I look at them today, you know, they did that about 15 years ago, and it's been quite remarkable the way that they've been able to continue to innovate. And I think a lot of that has to do with how you manage and reward your people.

Christie Smith: Yeah, I think there are a lot of factors in that. Kelly. I mean, I, think, you know, you and I've had multiple conversations about this, but performance, great performance comes when , the work that you do is meaningful to you and to the company that you feel as though somebody cares about you.

Where you feel as though your ideas can be shared. And so, we even have to change the way we think about performance and reward. And broaden it in order to make sure we have the conditions in which someone can perform at the highest level. I mean, it's like a professional athlete, You have to put the conditioning in, you have to have the tools, you have to have the resources, you have to have the repetition, you have to have the coach. All of those things are really important to then reaching that elite level. Same as with an employee and how we measure them and reward them has to take into account all those other things.

Richie Cotton: Oh yeah, last one back there, and I do like the idea of having some sort of safe environment where you can just be yourself. Have bad ideas. I got to say, I like to think I have good ideas, but usually I've had like 20 bad ideas before I've got a good idea. And it's nice just to be able to be like, have other people not complain that I was overloading them with terrible ideas before we get to the good one.

So yeah, that cultural environment of just, psychological safety is incredibly important. I just want to go back to the thing you said before, Kelly, about Shifting the way people are rewarded to encourage helping each other. what is like a good way of measuring this?

in fact, what do you even measure to say this person has been helping the rest of the team?

Kelly Monahan: that's a great question, Richie. So, you know, I think there's been a couple examples of companies that are doing this well. A lot of times this comes down to getting 360 feedback. I think oftentimes as we think about performance management, we all have worked for those people who manage up very well, because that's where the feedback is going, as opposed to actually asking, you know, across and down.

So I would start there as a pretty good barometer and making sure you're getting a holistic view of how the person's behaving, you know, throughout the organization and not just up. I also think this is where generative AI is going to become very helpful. You know, a lot of times we have focused a lot on quantitative data.

You know, we've all been put in the number box before, the nine box HR world. But I think what's helpful now is we can rely on much more qualitative feedback. And AI is going to help us synthesize and see that. So, you know, again, just as Christy was like joking about, well, how did you make friends before?

I think a lot of this is actually asking and checking in much more frequently after projects done, how did it go? The postmortems, you know, what went right? What didn't go right? Who was helpful? You know, where was their friction? And oftentimes, as human beings, we're much better at telling stories and narratives, and that hasn't been able to be quantified before because that's so hard from a research perspective to go through and digest all of those words.

Today, I think that's going to become much more helpful and really be able to surface. what people think and much more through storytelling and narrative. So both 360s, making sure you're getting the holistic point of view across all levels of the organization, but then also being able to lean much more into qualitative feedback and employee listening.

And again, this is where AI is going to be a really big friend to us. , 

Richie Cotton: I guess even with just the idea of like, well, how do you make friends? How do you talk to your colleagues? You know, quickly just ask chat. gpt. Give me like five conversation starters for my boss. Yeah.

Christie Smith: yeah,

Kelly Monahan: absolutely.

Christie Smith: absolutely.

Richie Cotton: Maybe there are some good uses for it.

 So, how do you go about implementing all these changes like across your culture then?

Because it sounds like gonna want to try and increase , the human interaction aspect of things. I guess it seems like dinners and snacks is like food related things are also like maybe an easier to implement thing. How do you go about changing your organization then in order to improve this leadership?

Where does it start?

Christie Smith: I think it starts with asking two fundamental questions within the business context. How are we going to run the place and who runs it? And if you think about the business context in answering those two questions, you've got to be very clear and transparent and articulate about what is the purpose of your organization.

And it's not just the organization is that me as a leader of a business unit or a team even is what is our purpose? purpose. How does it relate to the larger organization? How does it relate to our customers or our partners? So starting with purpose, purpose drives strategy. So how do I think about strategically what my portion of the company needs to accomplish?

How are we going to do that? Again, being articulate about that. Then looking at, culture. In order for us to meet the purpose, to meet our strategy, what is the culture we need to develop and to do that as a team, a leader does that with his or her team and is an active conversation about that I think is critically important.

So everybody can feel a sense of ownership around that. And then you look at things like, okay, well, how does that inform how we're structured? What is our operating model going to look like? The procedures, all of those kinds of things. And then it gets to, you know, what Kelly and I spent a lot of time talking about, which is what are the right skills you need, And what in terms of not just the skills that you need, but what are the critical roles that are disproportionately going to impact upstream of that? You know, the answering those questions and then what's the technology and the engagement that you need from your employees to be successful. So I think, while that might sound easy, that formula will tell you exactly what you need to do in terms of how you run the place.

 More importantly, it will tell you what you need in terms of who runs the place and the behaviors that they need to have.

Richie Cotton: Okay. I like the idea that you start with like, what are you trying to achieve from a business point of view? And then you start thinking about the people and then like technology is kind of like it's implementation details rather than. technology driving things from the beginning. Alright.

So, just to wrap up then, what are you most excited about in the world of leadership at the moment?

Kelly Monahan: You know, I think we're, we're just at such a tremendous crossroads right now. I think there's going to be probably more chaos ahead than certainty. And I think this is the moment for leaders to get right. I think this is a really make or break moment for the majority of leaders today. I think the workforce is ready for it.

I think, we haven't necessarily talked about Gen Z, but Gen Z in particular, and in what they're demanding and asking for is a different type of leader to emerge. And I'm really excited. I think it's going to be, we're going to be able to see those leaders. I think they're going to stand out in a way.

 sometimes as the world gets darker, , some of these bright spots are going to shine even brighter. And I am very confident, optimistic that top talent and high performers are going to be following these leaders. that we describe in the book Essential because it's, again, , a virtual cycle.

People want to work for these type of leaders. These leaders recruit and attract these type of people, and these type of organizations make a big impact on the world. And so I think that is what I'm optimistic about. I think we are primed and ready to start seeing some of these virtual cycles in motion.

What 

Richie Cotton: Okay, I like the idea that Gen Z are going to be brilliant leaders. Hopefully. Fingers crossed for them.

Kelly Monahan: Oh, I'm, I'm optimistic about Gen Z.

Christie Smith: Yeah, I think there are already incredible leaders, to be honest. I share your optimism, Kelly. I think that there is a collective, it feels like, a collective need emerging around the globe of real leadership that inspires, that provides security. , that's psychological security, personal security, all of that. , I think we are at a perfect storm from, , where we've been. 

And so I do think that there's tremendous optimism. I think that the creative way that individuals are making money, whether that's with a traditional organization or if that's a fractional worker or, people who now are, , investing in their own organizations, founders.

 I think all of these different ways that people have the flexibility to engage in the economy is so Fantastic, right? And it's only going to spur more innovation and fuel the economy, but we need really good leaders to do that. And that's why we felt so moved and called to write this book is we just the circumstances of today demand a different kind of leader.

Richie Cotton: Alright, super. Yeah, well, here's hoping that some of this gets implemented. We get some sort of workplaces pleasant experience to be at work. Okay, alright. Both for your time, Christiane Kelly. 

Christie Smith: Thank you, Richie.

Kelly Monahan: Thanks, Richie.